message 0046

• Gender roles in C.J. Cherryh's writing; incl. Azi and aliens (huge thread!)

>From: nancy ott <ott@ansoft.com>
>Subject: cherryhlist - "Manly Men"
>Date: Wed, 2 Dec 92 10:09:03 EST

> >From: Lesley Grant <lgrant>
> >Subject: cherryhlist
> >Date: Tue, 1 Dec 92 13:13:03 GMT
> 
> > >From: Nick Janow (who shows his impeccable taste by agreeing with me :-)
>  
> > There are times when I'm in the mood for that "easy" reading: a SF novel with
> > a simple plot, a simple hero, and a happy ending.  There are other times when
> > I won't be satisfied with that.  At such times, I'm more in the mood for
> > "Downbelow Station", or even "40000 in Gehenna".  When I'm in that sort of
> > mood, I do enjoy the male protagonists, with all their psychological problems
> > and inadequacies--and their hidden strengths.
> 
>       Why do you think she is described as having 'unrealistic' male
> characters? Every time a discussion of her books comes up on the net, several
> people will more or less say all her male characters stink. Why do they
> ignore the existence of characters like the ones I listed? Surely someone
> like Mazian would satisfy calls for 'realistic' men (you know, the ones
> who go round committing outrages and subjugating planets :-) What is it about
> the other male characters that arouses irritation in some readers? 

But almost none of these "he-man" types are major characters.  Cherryh
relegates most of the "normal" guys to the sidelines, and gives the
spotlight to men that one individual I spoke with called "screw-ups,
flakes and wimps."  Most of her male protagonists have been severly
traumatized at some point in their lives; occasionally they are just
nice guys in bad situations.  Very few of them are traditional,
"manly" men. (I'm not counting azi and aliens, who have entirely
different psychologies.)  The only major "viewpoint" characters I can
think of that fit this description are Ben Pollard from Heavy Time &
Hellburner, the sculptor from Wave Without a Shore (whose name I can't
remember), and Sten Duncan from the Faded Sun series.  Morris Bird
(Heavy time) and Jurgen Graf (Hellburner) also fall into this
category, though they aren't given as much space as the other
characters.

I think a lot of people who read sf/fantasy do so because it gives
them a chance to feel heroic and capable, at least until they put down
the book and get back to real life.  Many read it in order to escape.
(I know I started out that way, reading voraciously in order to get
away from an intolerable situation at school.)  A Cherryh-style hero
just wouldn't cut it -- not heroic enough, too introspective and
emotional, and prone to screw things up royally.  Why would you
imagine yourself in the place of someone with the same failings as
yourself?

Of course, the flip side of this is that it's good to read about
flawed, emotional men who survive against the odds and even achieve
their goals once in a while -- epsecially if you're pretty flawed and
emotional yourself.

- nancy

PS: Curiously enough, many of Cherryh's *female* characters fit this
"heroic" stereotype much better than her *male* characters do.  Any
thoughts on this?